i’m a liberal…no wait, i’m a conservative…
I am currently working on my masters at a local seminary here in Arizona.
This is where I sit.
I love sitting in the back, right-hand corner in my classes. I don’t like having people sitting behind me. All my classes are either 2 or 4 hour in length, and I can’t possibly sit down the whole time…often I will stand up in the back. I also drink a lot of tea during my class…and if you are a tea drinker, you know that you have to pee quite a bit…so sitting in the back is very helpful for those with an active batter (I just sounded like one of those commercials…do you go often? ha ha). I also like the back, right-hand corner because I can see everything that goes on. And let’s be honest, I love the window seat because it gives me the best view in the house to zone out and watch the sunset.
So, not too long ago I was studying for an exam…I don’t know how you study, but I like to make note cards. One of the note cards that I had made was about divorce. On the back of this note card was the ‘Liberal View’…and as I was walking around my house memorizing this card, it hit me.
I’m being brainwashed.
I was being forced to memorize that if you believe it is okay to get a divorce under certain circumstances, you were a Liberal.
I share this with you because this has been just one of my experiences, thus far, in seminary…
I am aware that some of you will know which seminary I attend, but my hope isn’t/wasn’t to point out just one seminary. Before I sat down to write this blog entry, I asked some friends (some new, and some old) what they thought of their seminary experience…it was encouraging to know just how similar our thoughts were.
I am wondering though (and this is the point of the blog entry) if these feelings that I am experiencing, encircle or embrace you at all at your core as a Christian???…not just seminary students.
My feeling is that I am too liberal for the church and, yet, too conservative for the world…and I’m not quite sure where I fit.
It seems like if you drink wine or beer in public places, say bad words (shit, damn, ass, etc), support/love homosexuals (notice I didn’t say condone), vote according to propositions and not according to who is the Republican or Democrat, or believe that divorce is okay, etc, that you can’t be a Christian without being labeled a ‘Liberal Christian.’ I remember in class not too long after my brainwashing experience we were talking about ‘those liberals,’ and it made me think about what the word liberal even means.
I looked it up …
liberal |ˈlib(ə)rəl| |ˌlɪb(ə)rəl| |ˌlɪb(ə)r(ə)l|
adjective
1 open to new behavior or opinions and willing to discard traditional values : they have more liberal views toward marriage and divorce than some people.
2 [ attrib. ] (of education) concerned mainly with broadening a person's general knowledge and experience, rather than with technical or professional training.
3 (esp. of an interpretation of a law) broadly construed or understood; not strictly literal or exact: they could have given the 1968 Act a more liberal interpretation.
4 given, used, or occurring in generous amounts: liberal amounts of wine had been consumed.
• (of a person) giving generously : Sam was too liberal with the wine.
The first two definitions sum up every person who is actively learning, not just paying seminary students but all people who ask questions…it almost has a universal sense...
But it seems as though while Christians would like for the world to believe that they are open-minded and that they are open to expanding their knowledge, they do not consider themselves liberal thinkers…yet, according to the definitions above, if one is open to learning new ideas, then he is in fact a liberal-minded person.
How does that make you feel? Are you okay with that?
And yet the world sees me as being too conservative…mainly because of the fact that I carry the title Christian. I guess what I am trying to say is that this ‘too conservative’ mentality isn’t necessarily because of my Christ-likeness, but rather, it is because I am called a Christian. Isn’t that sad?
So where do I belong? I feel as though many think and feel like me. But we are hidden because we are too scared to speak aloud because we don’t know how people might think of us. And what is funny is that many of us who feel this way end up building great relationships with the other people who have been rejected by Christians.
Honestly, it doesn’t surprise me that those people who are not Christians always complain about how Christians are closed-minded…we are, even by definition, we are. But we (Christians) aren’t stupid either…we know the right things to say and that is why we will often tell people that we love to study or to read about the religions of other people or that we are open to the beliefs of others…we even say that it makes us stronger…Haven’t you heard this before? My fear is that if we don’t begin to develop a liberal theology (yes, I said liberal)…a liberal way of life…we will only separate ourselves even more from the world to which we are seeking to show Christ. By the definition above…I think that Jesus was Liberal.
I am wondering though (and this is the point of the blog entry) if these feelings that I am experiencing, encircles or embraces you at all at your core as a Christian???…not just seminary students
heart.soul.mind.
kyle diroberts
This is where I sit.
I love sitting in the back, right-hand corner in my classes. I don’t like having people sitting behind me. All my classes are either 2 or 4 hour in length, and I can’t possibly sit down the whole time…often I will stand up in the back. I also drink a lot of tea during my class…and if you are a tea drinker, you know that you have to pee quite a bit…so sitting in the back is very helpful for those with an active batter (I just sounded like one of those commercials…do you go often? ha ha). I also like the back, right-hand corner because I can see everything that goes on. And let’s be honest, I love the window seat because it gives me the best view in the house to zone out and watch the sunset.
So, not too long ago I was studying for an exam…I don’t know how you study, but I like to make note cards. One of the note cards that I had made was about divorce. On the back of this note card was the ‘Liberal View’…and as I was walking around my house memorizing this card, it hit me.
I’m being brainwashed.
I was being forced to memorize that if you believe it is okay to get a divorce under certain circumstances, you were a Liberal.
I share this with you because this has been just one of my experiences, thus far, in seminary…
I am aware that some of you will know which seminary I attend, but my hope isn’t/wasn’t to point out just one seminary. Before I sat down to write this blog entry, I asked some friends (some new, and some old) what they thought of their seminary experience…it was encouraging to know just how similar our thoughts were.
I am wondering though (and this is the point of the blog entry) if these feelings that I am experiencing, encircle or embrace you at all at your core as a Christian???…not just seminary students.
My feeling is that I am too liberal for the church and, yet, too conservative for the world…and I’m not quite sure where I fit.
It seems like if you drink wine or beer in public places, say bad words (shit, damn, ass, etc), support/love homosexuals (notice I didn’t say condone), vote according to propositions and not according to who is the Republican or Democrat, or believe that divorce is okay, etc, that you can’t be a Christian without being labeled a ‘Liberal Christian.’ I remember in class not too long after my brainwashing experience we were talking about ‘those liberals,’ and it made me think about what the word liberal even means.
I looked it up …
liberal |ˈlib(ə)rəl| |ˌlɪb(ə)rəl| |ˌlɪb(ə)r(ə)l|
adjective
1 open to new behavior or opinions and willing to discard traditional values : they have more liberal views toward marriage and divorce than some people.
2 [ attrib. ] (of education) concerned mainly with broadening a person's general knowledge and experience, rather than with technical or professional training.
3 (esp. of an interpretation of a law) broadly construed or understood; not strictly literal or exact: they could have given the 1968 Act a more liberal interpretation.
4 given, used, or occurring in generous amounts: liberal amounts of wine had been consumed.
• (of a person) giving generously : Sam was too liberal with the wine.
The first two definitions sum up every person who is actively learning, not just paying seminary students but all people who ask questions…it almost has a universal sense...
But it seems as though while Christians would like for the world to believe that they are open-minded and that they are open to expanding their knowledge, they do not consider themselves liberal thinkers…yet, according to the definitions above, if one is open to learning new ideas, then he is in fact a liberal-minded person.
How does that make you feel? Are you okay with that?
And yet the world sees me as being too conservative…mainly because of the fact that I carry the title Christian. I guess what I am trying to say is that this ‘too conservative’ mentality isn’t necessarily because of my Christ-likeness, but rather, it is because I am called a Christian. Isn’t that sad?
So where do I belong? I feel as though many think and feel like me. But we are hidden because we are too scared to speak aloud because we don’t know how people might think of us. And what is funny is that many of us who feel this way end up building great relationships with the other people who have been rejected by Christians.
Honestly, it doesn’t surprise me that those people who are not Christians always complain about how Christians are closed-minded…we are, even by definition, we are. But we (Christians) aren’t stupid either…we know the right things to say and that is why we will often tell people that we love to study or to read about the religions of other people or that we are open to the beliefs of others…we even say that it makes us stronger…Haven’t you heard this before? My fear is that if we don’t begin to develop a liberal theology (yes, I said liberal)…a liberal way of life…we will only separate ourselves even more from the world to which we are seeking to show Christ. By the definition above…I think that Jesus was Liberal.
I am wondering though (and this is the point of the blog entry) if these feelings that I am experiencing, encircles or embraces you at all at your core as a Christian???…not just seminary students
heart.soul.mind.
kyle diroberts
posted by Kyle DiRoberts at 9:49 AM
20 Comments:
Well, that Roberts guy kinda said it all.
I'm deffinetly with you, Kyle. And I'm reminded of McLaren's "Generous Orthodoxy" sub-title. We are quite the hybrid followers of Christ, being all things to all people so that some might see Jesus' love. I think to some we'll leave a legacy of contradictions and I'm alright with that.
Its scary to me at how easily enamored students are with their profs.
Reminds me of what it mustve sounded like to hear Jesus say, "you have heard it said but I say unto you..."
Its sickening to me that these same "complementarians" exile competent women to the nurseries and awana classrooms. They forbid them to teach yet have little to no reservations about sending women out to 3rd world mission fields or to teach in the inner-cities.
Its encouraging to me that you took the red pill.
this gives me a hope for the future of Christianity's influence in North America.
Neo the Anonymous
I hear your heart.
The problem is that the term "liberal", within Christian circles means "scripture is not the absolute standard for theology." It's Ok to be edgy, but do you really want to toss aside scripture just to be relevant?
I don't think you're saying that, just be aware of what terms mean to different groups.
Brain washed? You can't be serious. Study WWII history and you'll begin to get a small glimpse of what "brainwashing" is all about.
You don't have to agree with the views taught at the seminary, but they would be doing you a disservice if they didn't present the views that have been held by thousands of theologians for thousands of years... along with the opposing views (or liberal).
I don’t let any seminary professor put me in a box or define my theology, but I still want to know what they have to say (they’ve read a whole lot more than I have.) My job is to filter out the useful from the superfluous (and there is much to filter.)
Keep pressing into the culture - and yes, please be relevant and radical and all the catchwords. Honestly, it’s a waste of time to worry about a label. Just be authentic and faithful to The Word.
My firend... you can't define the term liberal by by a dictionary definition if you want to understand it in its religious context. Undestand the term for what it was... a late 19th early 20th century development. and then if you want to undersatnd it even better, do some research on its opponents (fundamentalists). The context changes the definition.
In this context liberal means...
No innerancy of Scripture,
No virgin birth,
No miracles,
Not made in gods image,
No revelational knowledge... etc.
From one seminary student to the next (the reason I read this blog) I see a lot of myself in you. And I too do feel stuck at some times... like Im neither "here" nor "there" and am an independent. Be happy in that place and dont give in to the temptation to be one or the other. That is truly how you are "in" this world, but not "of" it.
Jonas,
Thank you so much my friend…thank you for your words…and your mind. I feel special knowing that you even read my blog.
I used a dictionary to define the term because as a culture when someone wonders what a word means he or she typically (not always) looks it up in a dictionary. I understand though that we change words all the time to mean different things…but most of the time the collective meaning could be found in the dictionary. Wouldn’t you agree?
When you speak about not believing in the inerrancy of Scripture, or that Jesus wasn’t born by a virgin, or that those accounts of miracles in the bible are not true, or that we are not made in the image of God (both man and women)…most of those are essentials to any Christian. Those are just some of the beliefs that make us unique to the world and other religions. So if you don’t believe in those you aren’t really a liberal or a conservative, rather I think that you are pressing more on becoming a heretic. Those topics have been spoken about since our Early Church Fathers, and while some of those beliefs are hard to explain or to understand we still have the ability to believe or to have faith.
My friend…I think that the definition for liberal fits just right within our culture (both Christian/Non-Christian)…Christians speak of being open minded, but truly if you push them to their limits…they aren’t. That is why the conservative label fits the Christian community so well. I know you won’t like this very much but the definition of conservative is, “holding to traditional attitudes and values and cautions about change or innovation…” Doesn’t that just sound like our Christian community today???
That is why I think that Christians need to be more liberal…not heretical.
The world (and even our Christian community) doesn’t need anymore conservative Christians…we need more people who are open to different opinions and willing to discard traditional values…we need more innovative people who are Christians.
heart.soul.mind.
kyle diroberts
I like it when things become simple.
When doing my undergraduate work while studying Studio art, i came across some strange situations that would not be considered conservative and REALLY would not be found in a seminary (not that one would expect it...unless a seminary decided to have a art program- but then again, it probably wouldn't happen even then.)
...I'm am a 24 year old young woman, and i have probably drawn on average 10-15 nude people, old, young, male, female... with a degree in Studio art, this was an expected part of my education. Little did I know that it was also a form of education on God's part, because when I drew an old man's hand, tired and worn, with the weight of his body leaning into his fingertips, I finally learned how to draw the weight and strain of human life. ... there was a race against the clock (we were timed...maybe 10 min...30 min...60 min)....and in this mad rush, one has to try to get all the perspectives right, the lines, the color, shadows, value...the last thing I was looking at was...well, what would be considered erotic. When a model is nude in an art school, all eyes are on the subject, not because of its "nakedness"...but because we are faced with the most beautiful thing created...the human form.
There is nothing as challenging or humbling...because the range of diversity is undeniable and unavoidable...and in addition to adding light and color, the human has a mind and spirit... We're talking about what God made in His image.
I don't think I've ever seen anything as beautiful.
(note: and I'm the type that gets all uncomfortable when you see a nude during a movie and I'd probably scream running like a little girl if i saw anyone I knew nude... ;)
So, my point is...
I stayed. I was uncomfortable. But i stayed. And, being in a very "liberal" environment, I grew further as a follower of Christ.
And, because this type of thing we call "figurative art", may be considered "liberal", it may not be considered an option of value within some conservative viewpoints within Christianity.
So how does one gain the dialoge, vocabulary, knowledge, and communication skills of such an "visually intoxicated" culture in order to reach and love as Christ would?
Get in there?
Find the Christ in it?
is it possible?
yes.
Is it hard?
yes.
So I struggled with what I could be.
a conservative christian?
liberal christian?
....So I read my bible. I painted. I talked with Buddists. I talked with non-believers. I talked with other Christians. I struggled a bit more. I prayed. I painted more.
(and this is where it becomes simple)
All I have to do is stay loyal to Christ.
And, be ok with the fact that being a christian in the art world is actually "taboo". (on both ends)
Really. it is.
And I'm ok with that. I may not be edgy enough for the art world, and I may not be soft enough for the Christian world.
But, all i know is that God is the love of my life, and that is why I draw and paint.
Even nudes.
Kyle!
I'm curious about the contextualization of the gospel.
More specifically, what language is appropriate for communicating the Jesus and God's revealed will?
I just read an article by John MacArthur about cussing pastors. (Can you guess his take?)
I'm curious how one balances profanity and a life that imitates God. For instance, Ephesians 5:4 says, "There must be no filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting [for Christians]."
I assume society is a huge factor in determining which words are pure and impure.
So, perhaps a good method in determining whether or not a word is of the "four-letter" variety is to see the effects of it has in any Sunday School/Kindergarten/Day Care Service. If the parents freak out, then they're impure; else, go for broke!
Thoughts?
Joe…your awesome! I always enjoy our time together.
It was so good to hear from you…
That was a good call about the contextualization of the gospel…
I looked it up in a couple of places and it seems like it is speaking more about having a dirty mind than anything else.
But here is what I found.
Since you used a traditional translation I figured I would look in the message also…it reads, “Don’t allow love to turn into lust, setting off a downhill slide into sexual promiscuity, filthy practices, or bullying greed. Though some tongues just love the taste of gossip, Christians have better uses for language than that. Don’t talk dirty or silly. That kind of talk doesn’t fit our style. Thanksgiving is our dialect.” -Ephesians 5:3-4
This is also what I found in “The Letter To The Ephesians”…it is a commentary by Peter T. O’Brien (Pillar Series). It says, “The warning of verse 3 about avoiding sexual sins is here continued in the triad of terms that refer to sinful speech: obscenity, foolish talk, and coarse joking about sex are to be avoided as entirely inappropriate among those who are saints. Over against these and the preceding vices of verse 3, however, stands thanksgiving, the fundamental Christian response of gratitude, expressed by those who have experienced God’s grace in Christ (Ephesians 1:3-14)…Even in early times, however, the term could have negative connotations, perhaps ‘buffoonery or some kind of inhumane or degrading jesting’. P.W. van der Horst thinks that the context of Ephesians 5:4 suggests the meaning of coarse joking that has suggestive overtones and double entendres. All three terms refer to a dirty mind expressing itself in vulgar conversation. This kind of language must be avoided as utterly inappropriate among those whom God has set apart as holy.”
Couldn’t I be so excited and grateful about God that I burst out and say, “damn, I love God so much!”????
My friend…when I spoke of saying cusswords I didn’t mean to talk dirty…I hope that you know me better than that. Talking dirty doesn’t represent Christ, or isn’t sensitive, or doesn’t show respect towards women.
What I was speaking about were those times when you stub your toe and it hurts so bad that saying “DANG” just doesn’t do it…
Or when Steve Nash hits a three to tie the game against Dallas and puts the game into over time and “HOLY MOLY” just doesn’t capture the excitement…
See where I am going???
I’m sorry if that offends you and next time we are together I will try not to say any cusswords, but you are smart enough to know the difference between a ‘dirty mind’ and what I like to call “a good choice of words”. Sometimes saying a cussword drives home what you are trying to say with more passion…I like passion.
Anyways…I found this in the message translation and thought you might like it…“Peter said, ‘To hell with your money! And you along with it. Why, that’s unthinkable—trying to buy God’s gift! You’ll never be part of what God is doing by striking bargains and offering bribes. Change your ways—and now!” Acts 8:20 –The Message
So contextualizing that verse lets pretend for just a second…What if Peter really did say HELL?? Do you think that he was more concerned that he said HELL or that people were trying to buy God’s gift??
Even Peter says cusswords in the bible (message translation).
heart.soul.mind.
kyle diroberts
Two thoughts on this one:
1.) People are dying of AIDs, women walk the streets selling themselves to pay rent, kids without parents wonder whether their next set of foster parents will beat them, families share one room apartments with 4-5 other families because they can't make enough money to live like we do, those without homes and often without food wander the streets of Phoenix. All of this (and much much more!) happens everyday and everynight to someone within the human race. When I think of these realities my heart breaks and 4-letter words are often the only ones that will do justice to the injustice.
2.) If we walk out of our churches and into the streets and dwell there for any length of time, we will come to realize that these words are the language of the people. I don't think that a filter of "what is appropriate around daycare?" is the right path. After all - I also wouldn't talk about sex or have a beer in those environments, but certainly I am able to do both as a follower of Jesus.
Kyle,
Try "Ouch" or "That hurts!" when you hit your thumb. Or just yell real loud.
Try "Awesome" or "unbelievable" when your team wins. Or just yell real loud.
Word's don't have to be profane to express emotion.
You don't use the "S" word in church for the same reason you don't use the "N" word with an African-American person. It is offensive and is not showing respect or love to that person. Using culturally clean language is a way to show Love and respect to people.
John - it is irresponsible to compare the "S" word with the "N" as being the same. The "N" word is demeaning, racist, and recalls a horrifying era of african-american history. The "S" word, at best, causes gasps and uncomfort from those raised in a different era. There's quite a difference. Let's compare apples with apples shall we?
Zack,
I agree, there is no question that the S word and N word have different meanings. But You missed the point. You don't use them for the same reason. Both are highly offensive - for different reasons. By choosing different words, you show love and respect to your hearer.
John,
a couple of thoughts...
1.) People can use ANY words to offend, it doesn't matter which letters they choose and in what order they put them in. And being intentionally offensive can be done without any language altogether.
2.) Where do you consider context on this issue? You say that "shit" is highly offensive - but it's not to me or those I share life with. I have no doubt it is to you, but to assume that everyone has the same understanding of a particular word as you is a mistake. After all even the "N" word is appropriate in the right context (some African-Americans use it as a term of endearment).
So again...are we really talking about what words are wrong to use? Isn't it much more about what's behind the words we use - profane or otherwise?
I have enjoyed reading the thoughts of everyone so far… I know that everyone is busy, and so I just wanted to say thank you for taking the time to comment.
I am assuming that we have gotten into this conversation about cusswords because there was that part in the post about cussing, homosexuals, divorce, etc…but what has me thinking is why are we spending so much time on the topic of cussing?? Why not on homosexuals??? Or how about divorce???
Maybe the topic of homosexuality scares people a little to much to want to speak about it…what do you think? And with divorce…it is so hard to speak for or against it because just about everyone these days comes from or has someone close to them divorced…what do you think?
To be honest with you, when I wrote that post and I spoke about cussing, homosexuals, divorce, etc…I was the least concerned with the cussing part.
Please continue to comment as you desire, but I also want to add another question to the conversation…why do you think we have spent so much time on this cussing topic and not the others (homosecuals, divorce, etc)??
Kyle,
I'm excited to dig into this deeper. But to add one more thought on profanity, here's a article submitted by John Piper on the "inappropriate language" he used at a Passion07 breakout session.
Here's a link
Our very own Wayne Grudem commended Piper on his response. See that here. What do you think? Should we talk over coffee?
Hey Kyle! It seems both the post and comments are dealing with words as labels which indicate and embody an ideologies and attitudes.
In our culture, the word "liberal" is more than a generic term that can be understood with a visit to dictionary.com. Our context loads the word with a set of values that constitute an ideological system.
So "liberal", in our culture, indicates and emodies (among other things) leftist politics, pro-choice and pro-gay marriage ethics, environmental consciousness, and pluralistic faith convictions. Some of that might be fine. Some of it might not.
Also in our culture, the 'F' bomb indicates and embodies both a hardcore verbal explanation of sexual intercourse as well as an attitude that seeks to apply that hardcore intensity into an adjectival emphasis for some other expression (e.g. "f-in awesome", or "f-in sucks").
The word "shit" indicates... well... shit. Not a lot of places to go with that one! ;)
Anyway, the point is that terms are loaded based on culture and context.
So does the ideological system and attitudes indicated and embodied in the term "liberal" describe you? For me, I would answer "somewhat"... which means that despite the dictionary definition which I might fully identify with, I'm only partially liberal. Same thing with the term "conservative". That doesn't make me an ill-fitting person... but it does make those once-useful terms ill-fitting for me and most of my generation. We need new terms.
One term I can fully identity with is "Christ-follower". I'm all of that... or at least I try. I'm a born-again, Jesus-junky - %110 with no "somewhat's" in it. That's the only box I totally fit in. And that's the way I like it.
By the way, I'm registered as an "Independent" for just that reason. Eager for your response, man! Peace in the Way!
Joe,
Thank you for those articles…I read them…and I guess I wish John Piper had never said sorry. I don’t think he needed to. I think his first choice of words conveyed exactly what he wanted to when he said, “There is a significant difference between saying that God disciplines his children and saying that he “kicks our ass” (the phrase used at Passion)—the effect of the first can produce a yawn and leave students with no sense of how real I mean it.”
I think he said it perfectly. And I also think that his explanation as to why he said the word “ass” is exactly why other people (even Christians) say cusswords from time to time. I don’t think that John Piper set out to use profanity…I think he was really using the word “ass” to make a point. John Piper did a great job at distinguishing between cussing and vulgarity/profanity.
I also read Dr. Grudem’s e-mail that he wrote to Piper…and with respect, I don’t agree. Dr Grudem is my mentor at the seminary and maybe he would be disappointed with me for disagreeing with him on this one.
This afternoon was great…I went along with some people from sky harbor to feed the homeless. I’m still processing a lot of my experience there, and hopefully I will write about it soon. But I tell you that because when I got home this afternoon it hit me as I was reading your comments and the comments that John made. And the first thing I thought of was a comment that my good friend Zack made on this post not to long ago, he said,
“Two thoughts on this one:
1.) People are dying of AIDs, women walk the streets selling themselves to pay rent, kids without parents wonder whether their next set of foster parents will beat them, families share one room apartments with 4-5 other families because they can't make enough money to live like we do, those without homes and often without food wander the streets of Phoenix. All of this (and much much more!) happens everyday and every night to someone within the human race. When I think of these realities my heart breaks and 4-letter words are often the only ones that will do justice to the injustice.
2.) If we walk out of our churches and into the streets and dwell there for any length of time, we will come to realize that these words are the language of the people. I don't think that a filter of "what is appropriate around daycare?" is the right path. After all - I also wouldn't talk about sex or have a beer in those environments, but certainly I am able to do both as a follower of Jesus.”
I think this is where I want to leave this topic of cusswords and the appropriate use of them...for now.
John,
Hopefully from reading my last comment above you will understand why I will not be addressing the topic of cussing…
but I would like to comment on your other thoughts…
Are you referring to our Christian culture, or just the culture in general when you say, “In our culture, the word ‘liberal’ is more than a generic term that can be understood with a visit to dictionary.com.” To me that is important to define because I get the feeling that we as Christians are a subcategory within the much larger culture…there are so many of us (Christians) and to say that all the non-Christians in the world are liberal would not be an accurate depiction. I have friends (and I am sure you do too) who are not Christians; who aren’t pro-choice and pro-gay marriage. Likewise I have Christian friends who are pro-choice, pro-gay marriage, and who are environmentally conscious. What I really want to do though is get away from this automatic labeling that exists. Often I don’t even think that we know that we are labeling people…it is just our nature.
But this isn’t fair for a couple of reasons…
1. If you are a Christian and you want to extend support and love to someone who is gay, and someone else who is a Christian finds out about your love and support that you are extending then they automatically assume you are liberal. And with that labeling they then take things even further and assume that you don’t believe in the bible, that you are pro-choice, etc, etc…
2. In the same way…If you are a Christian and you want to extend support and love to someone who is gay, and someone else who is NOT a Christian finds out…in most cases they won’t even give you a chance to extend any love or support because we as Christians have removed ourselves so much from the culture that people automatically assume that you are going to judge them, or even worse, that you are a close minded Christian and that all you will try and do is fix them.
I understand that the language that I am using now is speaking of a culture that doesn’t exist…[a] utopia. But that is why I often feel so awkward, and wonder where I fit in. And this is also why if I were to be pushed in a corner I would prefer people think I was a Liberal than a Conservative. I really think that much of the world has written off those that carry the Conservative title. On a lighter note it would be like telling someone you were catholic priest. What do you think most peoples immediate thoughts would be??? (remember, I said on a lighter note!!)
Also, I am beginning to see a theme from reading through the comments on this particular blog entry that is; some people don’t really like the use of a dictionary to define a word. That’s totally cool, I’m always up for creating new words, but for sake of conversation how are we to define anything if there isn’t a foundation to build upon??? I understand that relativism (2+2=5) plays a big part in how we as humans come to conclusions these days, but when did the dictionary become obsolete??
Personally I don’t think that dictionaries have become obsolete, rather I think that Christians have captured the worlds way of defining words by taking the world’s words and re-defining them. Come to think of it maybe Christians should have their own dictionaries…kinda like the little pocket dictionaries they give you in Bible College or Seminary. It is funny to me that we have theological dictionaries that we use all the time.
I have a feeling that you might agree with some of what I am saying considering you are registered as an “independent.”
“The world (and even our Christian community) doesn’t need anymore conservative Christians…we need more people who are open to different opinions and willing to discard traditional values…we need more innovative people who are Christians.” --I said this earlier, and I still believe in those words. And some people may say, “well yeah, obviously,” but those words are rooted within the definition of the word Liberal. And the funny thing is…that bothers some people.
Kyle,
I wonder if it's easier to say a four-letter word than to give up our luxuries in our lives in order to assist the homeless person at our gate. As Cobain crooned, "who needs actions when you got words..."
O! And just so you know. My day-care comment was meant to be a humorous rule-of-thumb.
Now to the greater question:
Why is it difficult to discuss homosexuality or divorce?
I think you hit the nail on the head. It hits way too close to home. It's easy to discuss four-letter words. People don't hold grudges when it comes to language. But homosexuality and divorce are real heart-rending topics that we deal with in our congregations.
Moreover, the scriptures are not silent about either of these issues. Both Jesus and Paul have hard words to say about them both. But, don't they communicate these moral absolutes in order to ensure blessings for our lives? I must assume so. The scriptures are for our wellbeing. They assist us in seeing where we are incomplete.
Kyle, are you also asking HOW we are to communicate these truths?
Why is it difficult to discuss homosexuality or divorce? Well for me it is not hard to discuss homosexuality...maybe it is because I am gay...and by the way I am also a Republican. Yes I am fully aware that scriptures mention homosexuality, every gay Christian guy knows that. The fact is Jesus never mentions homosexuality. As with any passage you have to ask questions when studying them. Do you have any preconceived biases which could affect your judgment or are we willing to look at each passage objectively? Are the meanings of the texts clear or obscure? Is there enough biblical evidence to base a doctrine on? Do we understand the context of each passage and the historical setting in which it was written? After making a serious attempt to understand these passages, are you/we willing to accept a conclusion if it differs from what we presently believe?
Those questions are important for those on both sides of this issue. If it can be demonstrated that these passages do in fact condemn homosexuality in all forms, then God no doubt would stand ready and willing to heal all those who ask to be free of it. Change in sexual orientation would be the norm as ex-gays converted to heterosexuality. The fact is I could give you a dozen names of guys and a few girls that I personally know that have tried all sorts of ex-gay programs when they finally realize that is how Christ made them, gay. All they have gain is a lot of hurt and pain from fellow Christ-followers during the process.
Jesus loved and accepted all who came to Him for salvation. He never demanded that His followers conform to a set of rules in order to gain His grace. In fact He condemned the Pharisees for doing just that to their followers. Those who demand that gays change their orientation in order to gain salvation, demonstrate not only a questionable view of the salvation of the gospels, but also a disconcerting lack of love for the gay Christian. Sexual orientation is not chosen, and the heartbreaking struggles gay & lesbian Christians have endured in trying to change are in vain if God’s word does not clearly condemn loving same-sex relationships.
And just in case you were wondering….a church will not go up in flames if a bunch of Christ-followers who happen to be gay show up at church. I was attended a service this past Sunday where one our friends was speaking (it was a Baptist church by the way) and I counted no less then 10 of our fellow Christ-followers who are also gay.
Being gay is part of who I am…it is not who I am, just like being a Republican is part of who I am. Who I am is a Christ-follower.
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